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Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

topic posted Mon, April 7, 2008 - 3:19 PM by  Andy 		Share/Save/Bookmark
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I posted this in Hot Springs Eternal tribe but I think more people will see it and find it useful here.

I'm sure many people are aware of the problems at this hot spring but I thought I would share my story from this Saturday (3/29/08). A friend and I were at Terwilliger (recently the kiosk at the trailhead was burned down), and heard there was a cop with a dog in the parking lot. We figured it was because of the kiosk but it turns out they were there to examine the cars and search them if the dog smelled anything. We were warned about this on our walk down by someone who was searched but nothing was found.

As soon as I reached the parking lot the cops new my name what car was mine and were going to search it no matter what. I was able to get them not to search it by giving away a tin with herb and my pipe. I ended up getting a $525 dollar ticket and they let me go on my way. And they were still waiting for one car that had a "hit" by the dog. All in all it was a lot better than what could have happened if they searched the car. They told me that it is common practice to bring a drug dog to that parking lot and smell the cars. The cops also said they don't care about small amounts (less than pound) and that is why I only got a ticket. If this is true then I question there reasoning for coming to that parking lot because they would only catch users there.

I wanted to warn all out there to be careful at this particular hot spring. I'm sure many people know about the vandelism probablems but federal police targeting herb users is new to me. I would never leave anything in the car because they never even tried to search my person. Good luck to all that visit this spring because I don't think I'll be returning for a long time.
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Andy
offline Andy
Seattle
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  • rose
    rose
    offline 248

    Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

    Sun, April 13, 2008 - 7:08 PM
    It's so sad
    That place used to be so good
    I walked in on a medicine ceremony near there is 1996
    off the paths and met so many people
    It wasn't perfect, but you could hang out there for a while and get a ride anywhere in the country
    of course the closer you were going the quicker you could get a ride
    I miss it so much
    is Jacob still around up there, the guy who knows the meanings of everyone's name?
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    • Andy
      Andy
      offline 6

      Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:52 AM
      I never met Jacob but the place is very different than it was in 1996. A lot more people and problems associated. I think the whole police thing began in 97 or 98 after the Oregon Rainbow Gathering, at least that is what I have heard.
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      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

        Wed, May 7, 2008 - 5:45 AM
        I have been going to Cougar since I was 7- - -I am 34 now and live in Oakland. Very sad to hear of new problems. However, Cougar seems to go through ups and downs and the darkest moment was when the FS set out to Dynamite the springs. it will get better especially if good people like you are not scared away---
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  • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

    Sat, May 10, 2008 - 7:58 PM
    This sounds like a shakedown scheme to me.

    I seriously doubt that a dog can reliably smell a small quantity of pot in a locked car over all the other car smells. How do you know someone else didn't smoke next to your car while you were hiking. Or got wasted then peeed 45 minutes later next to your car? Not to mention that cops have been know to lie and to plant evidence - especially when their's a lot of cash involved.

    Look at it this way. They know a some number of visitors will have a joint or two or a pipe. Most people don't know that they can refuse a warrantless search. Think of how many thousands of $$$$$$ they can bring in to their departmental budget each month. And, where are those papers documenting that Fido can actually smell anything? Bet they can't produce them on the spot.

    Anyone contacted the Congressperson for this district (hopefully in writing), or their Senators? Bet they don't know this little scheme is going on.
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    • Vince
      Vince
      offline 3

      Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

      Sun, May 11, 2008 - 10:23 AM
      The dogs can smell the aroma of pot that you had in your car days before...there is no way of hiding it from them. I have a friend that goes to Amsterdam every year, when he get back into the states the dogs go right to the pocket in his backpack where he had stored his baggie of pot when in Amsterdam...even tho it is empty and many hours had passed. If you have anything in your car they will find it.
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    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

      Sun, May 11, 2008 - 11:17 AM
      > And, where are those papers documenting that Fido can actually smell anything?<

      Right here in my pocket, Bill, now hand over the goods! :-)
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      • Andy
        Andy
        offline 6

        Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 10:24 AM
        I'm glad that people are as outraged as I was, but let it be know that I did refuse a warentless search and they informed me that they legally had a warent because of the dog and could produce it for me, that is when I began to cooporate. There are a lot of strange things to this story, they were waiting for three cars. One before me did let them search the car because he had such a small amount and they did not find it, if I did not cooporate it would have been worse, that is why I began to cooperate once it was clear they had a warent. I imagine that the whole thing has to do with $$$$ and these cops just needed to fill a quota or something.

        Also I will try not to be scared away but from now on its just one joint and nothing in the car! Also, I did just drive right past it two days ago when I went to see if bigalow was warm (still cold) and did not stop because of the bad taste in my mouth from this experience.

        Peace and love to all!
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        • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

          Sun, May 18, 2008 - 4:55 PM


          > legally had a warent because of the dog

          Huh? Did they show it to you? So they drove all the way into town while you were away - or did they have a so-called "John Doe" warrant?
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          • Vince
            Vince
            offline 3

            Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

            Mon, May 19, 2008 - 9:45 AM
            Search warrant? Welcome to post 9/11 'merica! The patriot act changed the rules...Police can secretly enter your home when you are gone, do a search, and never tell you about it. Once their dog detects an "illegal" substance in your car you are screwed, they have probable cause to search, you are guilty until proven innocent, the search is your opportunity to prove your innocence...and of course if you dont comply you must be hiding something?
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          • Andy
            Andy
            offline 6

            Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

            Mon, May 19, 2008 - 9:48 AM
            They had a so called "John Doe" warrant that allowed them to search whatever cars the drug dog has a reaction too, and they did offer to pull it out if I was unwilling to cooperate and let them into my car. So the warrent was for the car and nothing else, but I did not actually ask to see the warent. Around that part of the story is when I began to cooperate so that they would not search the car completely.
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            • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

              Fri, May 23, 2008 - 7:11 PM
              Too bad you didn't see it. I was curious as to how old it was - last week? Last month?

              Ploy (if you have the time and are willing to put up with a certain amount of lies and bullshit): You have a right to have an attorney present at the search. They probably won't let you leave to get one, but you're cooperating. There shift will be over sooner or later - they either have to let you get one somehow or give up. If they ignore that request and search anyway, they ball will be in your court (pun intended).

              As I said before, sounds like a shakedown. Persue appropriately
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    • Goat
      Goat
      offline 81

      Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

      Tue, December 23, 2008 - 10:17 AM
      Hi Bill, I respect your intentions, but I think I need to interject a little experience here...

      A dog has a very acute, very discriminatory sense of smell. The dog can seperate the individual scents and can smell a particular scent among many without any problem.

      Your implication about being able to smell a very small quantity of MJ that is hidden inside a vehicle is very difficult is correct. They dogs will miss alot. But if they smell it, rest assured, it's either there or it has been recently. Also, a police officer knows exactly what location his dog alerted on, and normally knows what substance his dog alerted on, as soon as the dog alerts, so there's no chance of a dog alerting on a urine spot next to your car and you subsequently being searched as a result of that.

      As far as producing the dogs certification paperwork, a police officer will not oblige a request to see them on the street, nor is he required to. The only way to get at those papers is either by filing a freedom of inforomation act request with the agency in question, or to be arrested and be provided them through discovery at your trial.

      As far as warrantless searches go, you are absolutely correct. No one has to consent to a search, and no one really should. Make the cop get a warrant. 9 times out 10 he wont, even if he could, which frequently he can not.
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      • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

        Tue, December 30, 2008 - 9:46 PM
        Assuming you're not holding ...

        a) I would ask for the warrant and take my sweet time reading it. Like is it beyond a reasonable time frame? Specific as to what's to be searched? Name the specific place (not the whole county, or some such rot). Unlike, say, going into an airport, being present at at given place does not imply consent to a search, nor does it imply illegal activity.

        b) a dog is not a warrant ... and, pray, don't they have to have 'probable cause' to use a dog in CA? From what's written here it sounds like a fishing expedition - and I would tell them that - as i I'm not going to be a pushover. And a dog is not going to put it's grimy claws on my seats, thank you very much.

        c) a dog is only as good as it's training and that training better be recent. Customs Service dogs are one thing, constantly trained, rewarded, etc., county cop dogs, another thing. Technically, you may be correct as to them not having the dog papers (depends on state law and court procedure), but it never hurts to demand them. If they get offended, "it's just business", and if being businesslike doesn't work, reminding them that they *will* have to produce them in court anyway, so why not play along with the game.

        d) You can excuse yourself and walk back to the springs. Risky, maybe, but then they have to play their cards. That's risky for them too, false arrest is a *big* deal, and in court discovery can work both ways.
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        • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

          Wed, December 31, 2008 - 9:55 AM
          Simple solution to all this. DON'T TAKE YOUR DRUGS. I love being able to smile sweetly at police and say "Sure thing, officer--search away!" I'd even pull out a blanket and put it on the seat for doggie's feet if they have one (but always be sure to tell the officer that you want to do that--to save your seat from footprints--and NEVER make any sudden or mysterious moves while rooting around in your vehicle for a blanket).

          You don't REALLY need drugs in a hot spring, anyway--the waters themselves should be all the healing or relaxation or stimulation that you need, right?
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          • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

            Wed, December 31, 2008 - 7:47 PM

            Don't bring drugs - not a bad idea at all. Let them search your car anyway? Bad idea. If there weren't drugs there before, you might have the bad luck of dealing with a dishonest cop who will plant them. Preceeding advice is from a cop who's with a very good friend of mine - and it's not the first time I've been given that advice BTW.
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            • Re: Police at Couger (Terwilliger) Hot Springs

              Fri, January 2, 2009 - 9:28 AM
              Yeah, I forget sometimes that I have the advantage of being female. This sort of thing doesn't seem to happen to women as much as men. And having worked with rangers in state parks for many years, I tend to know how to communicate with law enforcement in a non-threatening, "you don't really need to worry about little old me" kinda way. I smile a lot, and VERY polite and cooperative and in general very non-confronting, so I've seen even the most pissed off seeming officer relax and back off.
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